Bridging the Symbolic and Scientific Worldviews (EMP Podcast)

Jonathan PageauSymbolic World Icon
November 7, 2023

I sit down with Rafe Kelley on his podcast called Evolve Move Play (EMP). Rafe is interested in human movement training and parkour. Evolve Move Play “reconnects people to the most meaningful aspects of life and helps them cultivate their character through outdoor movement training with online courses, classes, and retreats.”

Rafe comes from a more scientific perspective and has been in conversation with people like John Vervaeke and Paul VanderKlay ( This interview is an attempt to bridge the gap between the symbolic, or mythological, worldview and Rafe’s more materialist presuppositions. We talk about the reemergence of the religious spirit (“re-enchantment), social justice, BLM and veganism etc, the role religion has played evolutionarily, the problem of inclusion and exclusion in group identity, the work of Jonathan Haidt, spirituality, emergence and emanation, the universalist position and much more.


Related videos:

-Religion and Materialism - Adam Friended vs Jonathan Pageau:

-Rationality Rules - Possibilities and Limits of Metaphorical Truth:

-Cognitive Science and the Sacred | with John Vervaeke:


Follow Rafe’s work:

-EMP Website:


-IG: @RafeKelley -

-FB: @RafeKelleyMovement -

-Twitter: @rafekelley -

This article is currently being edited and will be reposted soon

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